青甘环线（下）：敦煌、信仰，以及历史为什么会让人流泪

【转录7/26】【18:51-21:15】 Anyway And I also wanna share another story that happened to me. Just now I questioned if the almighty power exists. And actually a few years ago, if you have listened to our episode《姥姥的外孙》, then probably you know what happened to me earlier. And at that time, one of my relatives was severely ill. And one night I got a phone call saying that like probably he couldn't survive that night. Yeah, so at the time I was freaking. That was the first moment that I was so helpless. Then I called my pastor and asked him like, “Pastor, could you please pray with me? because I don't know what to do right now. I need some strength. I need some power.” Then he prayed with me. As we prayed together and I started to feel calmed. After all the prayers, I started to pick up some strength and headed to the hospital. Yeah, so I'm not so sure if god was watching me at that time or was helping me, but that was the moment that I felt the power. Well, when we feel helpless, we always want to do something to feel less helpless. Whatever you did before, it just helped you thinking that you were doing something. For me, I would understand it in that way. You were doing something so you feel better. So you're not completely, if I were you, I would feel useless at that moment. So I definitely want to do something to tell myself I'm not useless. I'm actually doing something, which is legit. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that. And whatever helps you at that moment, I think is all good. It's all necessary. Just do whatever to make you feel comfortable, make you feel better at that moment. For me, that is a very good example. You probably couldn't explain something that you experience, but probably you could sometimes. And I mentioned just now about the, like in the old time that people believed the Sun was circling the Earth until the moment we found out no, it's the opposite. And that is our universe.

【转录8/26】【21:17-23:37】 Long time ago, physics is a science that everything should be really affirmative. There shouldn't be any questionable movement. That was physics, long time ago. But now, thanks to quantum mechanics, the idea of physics has changed. And that's science, and that's what belief is. It's just constantly changing based on what we know, what we learn about our universe, our world. That's what I'm trying to say about belief. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I think you have a good point. And also, for our modern city life, there are so many distractions in our lives. It's weakening our commitment to anything, to be honest. Whether to our love, to our relationships, or to our work career, whatever. It's hard to focus. And that's why I got so shocked when I saw that guy was doing the full body prostrations. Yeah, I mean sometimes for us it's very easy to break the promise because as you said sometimes we are distracted right? That's why when I heard the story and I really pay my respect to him. Yeah, same here. During this trip besides that there's another thing that actually struck me very hard as well about belief. What happened? Well, I went to Mo Gao Caves. And there's another level of mind-blowing thing on this trip. Oh, I'm curious like what happened. Have you been to Mo Gao Caves? No, I want to. This was my first time there. It was so famous, right? So you sort of had some images in your head already. It was so different from what I pictured it would be. It was not like another famous tourist site. It was more like I was walking into layer after layer of belief, history, labour and time. Oh, so the Maogao caves are not just about the nice murals, it also emphasizes on the depth of the history.

【转录9/26】【23:40-26:04】 Definitely, and it's so big. It's so so big. I don't have the exact numbers of how big it is, but there are so many little caves all along that wall. And of course right now it's all protected in some small rooms and with a door and lock in front of it for the preservation. Before I went there, I thought it was all built all at once by some emperor, something like that. But it turned out it's actually not one period, not one style and not one dynasty. It keeps changing across time. Wow. Yeah, and for us, now is heritage and conservation. But for people living in those periods, it wasn't we are protecting cultural relics. It was just part of their world, daily life, politics, identity and community. They record centuries of changes and you can even tell the differences of different dynasties. It starts from dynasty Sui and then all the way to dynasty Qing. Oh, okay. So basically they are the collections of our Chinese history. Yeah. When I say layer by layer, it's literally layer by layer. So at the beginning, of course, 丝绸之路 the road of silk. The Silk Road. Dunhuang is the key point to connect the whole Silk Road to the west from China. So Dunhuang is a really important location at that time and that's why they started to build this thing. They want to have a little town there to help people to do the merchandise, do some trading or just take some rest on the road. So of course wherever there were people there would be some worshipping temple to just help them feel safe, feel home. So that's why at the beginning during Sui Tang, they built this whole, it was not really a temple but definitely sculpture of Buddhism and we all know Tang dynasty was really really rich. So when you see the sculptures from dynasty Tang, you can see the details of it. Every sculpture looks different, completely different. You can tell the details. Some has longer face, some has squarer face. And their dressing, the famous dress code in Tang dynasty was silk.

【转录10/26】【26:11-28:39】 Of course Silk Road, right? Of course silk. So you can picture how hard to show how light the silk looked like on the person. Wait, but Wing, I have a question. How can you tell it was silk? Okay, let me ask you a question before I answer this question. Yeah? What's the difference between wearing silk clothes and cotton clothes for example? I think the reflection. And also the weight of the clothes. When you wear it, you can sense, you can see the lightness, how light the material was or is. Oh. But how can you tell the weight from the murals? Well, that is the beauty of those sculptures, because the crafting was so good that you can sense the lightness of the silk. For example, when the wind blowing the silk, it flies away, right? Obviously, that is physics. So when you blow the material of silk or material of cotton, the shape of the fabric flying would be different. Yes. And the silk is so light that you can tell it flies smoothly and to capture that moment and fix it on a mud sculpture is really really hard, because the material of mud itself is not light, it's pretty dense. That means that all the artists from Tang Dynasty were really good at what they were doing and of course I think the emperor of Tang Dynasty paid a lot to them. Yeah, for sure. But that sounds very interesting. I think that's the techniques of the art, like how you can depict the materials, the scenes, and also the life at that time. So that's why I think if a country is rich, it's very thriving, and then the art and the history and also the cultures are also booming. Yeah, for sure. The artists need to do what they are doing full time to get their crafting perfect, which means they need dedication to their work. So there must be some patrons to support them to do that. Now I understand why you mentioned the details of the sculptures, because I can tell the difference.

【转录11/26】【28:45-33:22】 When you look at the sculptures in Qing dynasty, which is another sad story. Because during Qing dynasty, there were no artists to fix the sculptures or make new sculptures. So the people from Qing dynasty, mostly whoever did sculptures are just normal people, not artists. They just want to fix the sculpture. I want to do something, do some offering to the Buddhism. So they put mud on the top of the sculpture from Tang dynasty. For me it's kind of like plastic surgery. So you put all the mud on it and try to make the sculpture look the way that you want them to look like. But because they are not really professional sculptists, so they look all the same. Every person of the sculpture looked exactly the same, sort of like our modern day plastic surgery. Oh yeah, that's pretty sad to be honest, because Qing dynasty is already going downhill at that time, and that's why I don't really think people still have that energy to care about the aesthetic beauty or whatever. Probably they just cared about their bread and butter. 就刚才提到莫高窟，yao问我为什么莫高窟雕像的细节这么震惊？ 其实整个莫高窟是从隋唐时代开始的。那一直延续到清代，那每一个朝代的人都会做一些修修补补，包括他们要展示他们有做过什么，包括他们想可能朝拜啊，显示他们有功德啊。所以很不幸的是，后代的，譬如说，清代他可能会直接抹一些泥在那个唐代的雕塑上面进行重新雕塑，那因为唐代我们都知道唐代是非常富裕的，非常非常富裕。所以他们可以请专业的雕塑师专门去雕这个像，所以每个雕像它的形态也好，样子也好各有不同，而且每一个人物的样子都是不一样的。然后他们的衣著，唐代最出名就是他们的丝绸，然后那个唐代的人物都是穿丝绸。那丝绸它最有特点就是它有多轻，它是非常非常轻的一种物料,一种布料。那它跟我们现在穿的可能棉质的衣服,或者麻质的衣服，它的那个重量感是不一样的。然后那些雕塑师可以把那个轻薄那种感觉，通过雕塑体现出来，这就是它的技艺有多高超。但是清代的时候呢,那些修修补补的那些人并不是专业的雕塑师,他们只是普通人。所以他们的技艺确实有限,是没有办法。然后就让整一个所有的,只要他们弄过,只要清代已弄过的那些雕像,都看的是千变一律的。而且如果你去现场看的话,一看就知道这个是唐代的还是清代的。 嗯,对。 就非常明显。 对,就刚才我们都已经讲过,就是看你的国力。唐代,毕竟他很有钱嘛是吧,所以他可以除了自己的日常温饱之外,然后他还可以有一些美学的创作。但清代就已经在走下坡路了。他当时应该就是应该在想说如何抵挡那个外敌入侵。就大家其实当时只是顾著温饱,我觉得他能够说在他的原有基础上,然后再创作已经算是挺虔诚的了。 我倒是觉得他不要搞比较好。 对,像你刚才说的,好像我们现在的医美,啊,但我没有攻击的意思,就是说,可能就是大家的,嗯,审美可能会比较相似,在那个时候。 对,所以我觉得说,一个是这个国力的问题啦,其实也有历史的原因,因为到清代的时候,丝绸之路并没有隋唐的时候那么重要,而敦煌就是在丝绸之路很关键的一个点上,地点。所以属于东西方交流的一个文化点。而在清代的时候，其实那时候丝绸之路已经没那么重要了，对于中西文化或者货物交流这个部分。所以就变成说，清代的帝皇就觉得说，也不用花什么钱去维护之类的吧。但他们当时也没有说什么保护文物这个概念 对

【转录12/26】【33:23-35:56】 所以就随他，就很不幸 对啊 对 Anyway, it's not just because of the economic difference between Tand dynasty and Qing dynasty. Also, there's a historical reason for that. In Qing dynasty, Dunhuang is not as important as it was for Tang dynasty because Silk Road was not that important anymore at that time at Qing dynasty. So probably the emperors from Qing dynasty thought probably shouldn't spend more money on that thing and they didn't have the concept of historical site or relics preservation. So for them is yeah just let it be unfortunately, but still there are a lot of people just living around the area wanted to protect it. That's why people from Qing dynasty try to fix the sculpture and here comes the very sad story of this guy called Wang Yuan Lu. So who this guy is? You definitely would hear this name if you get into Mo Gao or anything of Dunhuang because this name basically represents a sad story of history. Like Wang Yuan Lu was a Daoist caretaker at Mo Gao around the early 20th century. He more or less took it upon himself to look after the caves when they were in rough condition as I mentioned. And he did repair work there. Crucially, in 1900, he discovered what later became famous as cave 17, the so-called library cave, hidden behind a wall near cave 16. It sounds like he is a protectionist, but why you said it was a sad story? Well, nowadays, he is one of those people who gets remembered in a very loaded way. In the simplified version, he is the man who sold the Dunhuang manuscripts. Wait, so that's such a contrast. Just now you mentioned he spared efforts protecting the Dunhuang, and now you said he sold the Dunhuang heritage. So what happened? Well, at the beginning, he probably wouldn't think those manuscripts would be that important from historical point of view. At that time, he probably just thought, oh, I really need some money to fix, to repair the sculptures, the caves. I really need some money.

【转录13/26】【36:00-38:18】 And here we are, some foreigners came here and wanted to buy all this stuff with a pretty good price. So why not? So I can have the money to repair all the things in Mo Gao caves. So such a dilemma. Yeah, it's pretty sad for him. Yeah, he sold the most valuable things to get the money to protect the Dunhuang, but actually those valuable stuffs are part of the heritage of Dunhuang. Yeah, that's why I say it's such a sad story. From his limited knowledge, he was doing something good. Yeah. He believed that. And then right now everybody was scolding at him because what he did. And I think this is called historical perspective. Yeah. So basically, we, the modern people right now, are standing in the history to judge the people in the past. Yeah, it happened all the time in a lot of historical events. Yeah. We always judge them from what we know. Like if you ask me, do I regret that I chose civil engineering as my major? If you know what you know right now? That's a very tough question. I mean if I know what I know right now of course probably it was not a good major because based on all the real estate situation right now right but I didn't know that and at that moment I probably you know no matter what if I went back 20…No, I shouldn't say the number. Because I went back years ago, I don't know. I think it's for the wing at that moment. She would probably still make the same decision because that was what she knew at that moment. Yeah. And at that time, the real estate was growing. Yeah. So nobody knew like what would happen right now. And right now you can tell, oh, you study civil engineering. That's not a good major, but he didn't know at that time, years ago. Yeah. The same thing to Wang Yuanlu, he didn't know that was so valuable. He didn't know all those manuscripts were lost in history until that moment he discovered that cave 17. He didn't know there would be not just about Buddhism, but also a lot of literature works as well.

【转录14/26】【38:26-43:14】 Of course, he didn't know that. Probably he didn't recognize those as well, of course, and then he just sold them for something. He thought would be more important at that moment. Yeah, so the manuscripts are not just religion, basically the world at that time. The lost world. Yeah, a lost world. Yeah, a lost part of history. Yeah. That's why he was so sad for him. But who could imagine the writings, the the documents are so important, right? Yeah. Probably he just think, okay, so just text, come on. Yeah, just like whoever discovered dinosaur bones. If I saw bones on the street, not on the street, maybe probably on some mountains, I would think, oh, that must be some wild animals bones there. I wouldn't think, oh, man, that's dinosaur. Yeah. If I didn't know, I didn't know. 嗯。那刚才其实我们也有提到保护这个问题。就是我们现在觉得莫高窟是非常非常重要的,因为它是给我们打开了一个研究古代历史的一个窗口。但是在当时清代的时候,刚才已经讲过了,清代已经在走下坡路,所以大家都面临一个温饱问题。那就有一个人物出现,他现在没有在我们的历史课本当中出现过,但是他,如果你了解这个莫高窟的话你就会知道他叫王圆箓。那刚才wing也给我们稍微介绍了一下他，他其实是在清末民族莫高窟的一个道士,然后他是一个看护者。那他自己承担了一部分的修缮和管理工作，那刚才也有提到其实到清朝的时候已经没有很专门的人去负责这一板块了，那他运用自己的力量然后去做这个工作，所以他其实是一个非常就对于我们现在的一个莫高窟的一个保护其实是做了很大的贡献。那最关键的是他在1900年的时候呢，他发现了后来非常有名的第17窟也就是藏经洞 对，因为不断的修修补补嘛，然后那个17号洞,它其实是个不大的一个洞来的，它不是那种人可以走进去的洞，它真的是里面用来收藏各种金书,各种文献等等的一个地方，然后当时因为莫高窟的地理位置是在沙戈壁那边，经常会风吹日晒,然后也可能被沙给埋了，然后那个洞就是被沙给埋了。他就在修缮的过程当中，有一天发现了怎么这里一个地方好像有一个小洞 ，然后他开始慢慢的敲开它来看，才发现了这一个藏经洞，也就是第十七号洞。然后他就发现里面原来这么多的东西，然后很不幸的就是，他当时没有意识到这些东西有多宝贵，因为其实里面除了有关于佛教的一些经书之外，他还有很多失传的轶闻性质的一些材料。就有很多历史文献啊、文学作品、俗赋、歌词、白话诗、画本等，各种各样接近日常文化基底的东西，这都是非常有名的一些作品。但是当时都已经失传了，然后后人觉得可能也不太可能会再发现它，但其实那个藏经洞里面就都是各种各样这种失传的东西。然后他当时是没有发现它有多重要，然后他大手一挥把所有东西都卖给老外了，就很不幸 对 所以对我来说藏经洞其实不仅仅是一个，只是一个文字性的东西，它其实是相当于是一个文明 ，当时是怎么写怎么唱怎么讲故事，怎么生活。所以他其实就将整一个文化，大手一挥就卖出去了，所以也就为什么他现在后人经常唾骂他，就直接说他是汉奸。但我觉得他当时可能真的没有想那么多，他只想有钱有收入来保护敦煌这个莫高窟 对呀 他有可能只是觉得 ，哦这是一些旧文旧纸，一些可能不太重要的一些文字吧 对 其实我想了一下的话,在当下,其实他生活在那个时代的潮流当中,他怎么会觉得这文字很重要呢? 因为他就是在历史当中啊。 对。 我们后人是看那些文字才能推断当时是发生什么事情,但他在历史当中,那他怎么会知道文字很重要呢?就好像我们现在那样子的话,我们觉得每天我发生什么事情,我不用记录,因为我就在当天啊,我在当下啊。

【转录15/26】【43:21-46:32】 对,我们应该学一下“Big Bang Theory”那个Sheldon。Sheldon就是从小就开始写日记,还有他的什么，他的Bowl Movement 哦,对 他说,加上我出名了,可能这些就是很重要的东西 对,那是证明他确实出名了 对,刚才讲到文字的话就让我想起，就是之前我去参观三星堆，三星堆它也是一个文明,但是它目前来说还没有发现任何文字。所以我们也没有办法考证他当时发生了什么事情,现在都是推论。所以我觉得就王圆箓他其实当时他没有想过这么严重的一个问题。他只是出于他的好心,就是我要保护好这个莫高窟,然后为了他自己的信仰。但他从来没有想过他做的事情会被后世的人一直在唾骂。 对啊,他挺惨的,从某种层面上还说。但真的就是他的知识有限，他的视野也有限，有他的局限性，然后就导致了这个事情发生 So what I was saying is why he got scolded so bad in history, because he pretty much sold out a whole period of culture, like how people read, how people sing, how people tell story back then. Those manuscripts are telling us all those details in the daily normal life of past dynasties. And he just sold out to foreigners, which is sad and unfortunate in history. You know, that's he knew what he knew and he did what he think was the best. Unfortunately, it was not good in history. Yeah. But actually, in my opinion, I don't think he's the one to be blamed. Because try to imagine protection is not just one person's responsibility, it should be the country's right? Yeah. Yeah so he already did his best. Like see he preserved the cave 17. That's why right now we can still admire the beauty of it. But if he didn't do that and then we couldn't even have the chance to witness how amazing it was. Yeah, nobody guessed you live as a museum label. Like a few hundred years later, our life will become some notes in some history textbooks. They probably would just use a few sentences to describe our life right now. It's just like some very neat summaries of our life. But in reality, like our life right now, we don't live neat lives. We live in confusion, urgency, limited options, imperfect knowledge. And even, you know, just that Jen Alpha right now could understand the life without cell phones, the life without internet. For them, it was unimaginable. Yeah, without the internet and the cell phones, and then they probably think they live in the Jurassic world.

【转录16/26】【46:34-50:30】 Yeah, they probably wouldn't understand if we make an appointment with someone that we have to stick to that appointment because we didn't have cell phone to call that person. I will be late. I couldn't make it. Well, I just show my age. I couldn't do that at that time. So promise is promise. Appointment is appointment. You just had to stick to it. And right now it's too easy. You just text, oh, I couldn't make it. I'm sorry. The Gen Alpha wouldn't understand that. They were like, why did you just text them? Yeah, that's very true. And that's a very vivid example. 你肯定也遇到过了,你教那么多小孩。 都还好诶,都还好。就是也没有觉得他们好像会有很大的问题。但是确实就是青少年的网络成瘾的问题还是很严重的。 对啊,他们完全没有办法想象就是没有手机跟没有网络的时代。我觉得我算是在经历过这段时间,但是我那时候也很小,暴露年纪。就是当时没有手机,那我们只要约了朋友的话,你也只能是准时出现,即便你不去,你也得去现场跟他说,我去不了了。 啊,你要,你去不了,但是你也得去现场那里去跟他说。 不然他会一直干等啊。 哦。 那当时没有手机,你看你都没有想象到这个就怎么去解决。 就我还记得我很小很小的时候 我约了一个朋友在某个地方见。然后我们一起去踩Roller，去踩那个单排滑轮。然后我记得我在那里等，他一直都不出现，我又不知道，我又没有电话。当时没有手机，也不知道怎么去问他，你来还是不来，你是不是发生什么事。然后周围也没有那种可以打的电话，然后我就一直在那里干等，我又很担心我万一走了他出现，他又在那里干等，回去真的一直在那里等。我可能等了半个小时都有吧，一直在那里干等 那最后呢? 她出现了，她就路上有点小意外吧，所以她就迟到了。但是当时就没有电话，你没有办法通知另外一个人，你发生了什么事，所以你还是得出现在那个地点。那当然现在就有了网络跟有了手机，根本不存在这个问题，你可能现在的年轻小朋友们根本无法想像当时那种情况。 对。 我都暴露年纪了。 没事没事。 反正他们都知道我们不是Gen Alpha的啦。Gen Alpha可能没有这么深的生活感悟。 对啊。时代不一样。大家的看法也会有变化的。 对。所以我就一直在讨论的一个问题就是,其实我们站在后人的角度再去看前人的行为的话, 然后我们会不理解他们。但是在当下的那个时刻的话,他们可能也只能做出这样子的选择。因为他们其实也不知道做出这件事情的话,后果会是怎么样。因为毕竟他们也没有那个穿梭机,没有那个时光机,也看不到以后会发生什么事情,对吧? 对啊,确实是。 Yeah, talking about time traveling, I actually, we actually, are able to do a little bit of that through a musical called “Again Dunhuang”.就是《又见敦煌》。如果你去了敦煌，你一定要看一下这个音乐剧，因为你会有一种时空穿梭的感觉。就好像坐著一个时光机回去看敦煌莫高窟的整个发展史 OK, so what exactly is it? Well, it's an immersive musical. So basically you need to walk around to watch the show. At the start, all these historical figures from across almost 2000 years come out one by one, almost like a catwalk. Wait, a catwalk?